ADULTS ONLY

[seawarrior]

IF, it ends up this forum will be closed, can you put like a 30 day announcement, so i can get the knowledge i need for future projects

[Sylvia]

The current How-To board will not be closed, SW.

I was initially considering the possibility of having a separate board like Bill suggested where people could post techniques that might not be quite so "child-friendly," but there appears to be some opposition to that idea so I highly doubt it will be going ahead.

[seawarrior]

  ok thats good, or i was going to use a lot of printer paper!

[Indianna]

Besides acknowledging the administrative problems of restricting access to "adult only" customizing techniques, I strongly, STRONGLY, STRONGLY oppose any attempt to restrict access to customizing information.  In my view, the finest attribute of the Playmobil line of toys is its ability to inspire creativity - the urge to customize Playmobil figures and parts is the logical extension of that and should be fully encouraged and not stifled in any way.  Playmobil has the responsibility to make their toys from safe materials, to indicate the appropriate age levels, etc., but parents have the ultimate responsibility to ensure the safety of their children and that is where we draw the line.  If, for example, a young child injures him/herself while using a hair dryer to soften a plastic figure, that is certainly not Geobra's responsibility - the real question is "Why are that child's parents letting him/her have access to a hairdryer?"

[Gustavo]

This is more than completely reasonable, Anne. Even not being a parent, I can understand, and even agree.

There is a line to draw. Geobra B. seems to be "lost", sometimes, in their measures. They need more counseling, I believe.

(Not only to such issues, but to enterprise issues and line projects as well! ... They should call me to work there, once I'm unemployed

  )

Gus

[Indianna]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but it is sort-of related, if only indirectly since part of the article concerns the selling of customized figures (which were apparently constructed from stolen parts).

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20090616/local/reassembled-playmobil-figures-projected-violent-image

The figures in question were also of a macabre nature, so it puts a different spin on it, but it does prove that Geobra are giving the whole customization process very serious thought.

I think this is very pertinent, Sylvia, and I thank you for posting the link.  Reading the article makes me wonder about the way that those parts got away from Geobra in the first place.  Employing "subcontractors" to assemble the figures off-site seems to be the same as the old-fashioned idea of "piece-work" which is a way to get work done very cheaply and often involves child labor.  If Geobra wants to protect the quality of their product as well as their corporate reputation they should ensure that all of their products are assembled on company property by company employees.  That way there would be no "leftover" parts to be sold in the Malta marketplace.

[Bill Blackhurst]

Besides acknowledging the administrative problems of restricting access to "adult only" customizing techniques, I strongly, STRONGLY, STRONGLY oppose any attempt to restrict access to customizing information.  In my view, the finest attribute of the Playmobil line of toys is its ability to inspire creativity - the urge to customize Playmobil figures and parts is the logical extension of that and should be fully encouraged and not stifled in any way.  Playmobil has the responsibility to make their toys from safe materials, to indicate the appropriate age levels, etc., but parents have the ultimate responsibility to ensure the safety of their children and that is where we draw the line.  If, for example, a young child injures him/herself while using a hair dryer to soften a plastic figure, that is certainly not Geobra's responsibility - the real question is "Why are that child's parents letting him/her have access to a hairdryer?"

I agree with you to a certain point Indianna! But what spurred this topic was Playmobils cracking down on sites showing artistic design due to their liability issues originating in their own country! Playmobil states that they can be held accountable for others who don't use their toys in a proper manner, & they will pursue websites that show customizations that children may endanger themselves attempting to duplicate! It is strange for a country's laws to hold a manufacturer liable for what others do with their products after they are purchased  ! The reason I support a separate board is to protect Playmofriends from reprimands if we post extreme procedures used in customizing processes! I myself can actually show Dremel tool procedures, or work being done with razor blades, hobby knives, & even being injured while doing the procedures, blood & all, but I refrain from doing so to protect children from being exposed to them. I have a regular hair dryer, & a heat gun that produces 1500 watts that can severely burn someone, or totally melt a plastic Klicky into a blob  ! I used to work on heavy duty trucks, so my retired high dollar tool collection is available for any project  !  If we had a separate restricted board for adults only, no offense to children, we could reveal our secrets using all of our tool arsenals, & tricks of the trade so to speak! The bleaching process that Andi revealed using commercial grade hydrogen peroxide, that is severely caustic, is a process I'm still interested in, but I myself was required to remove the recipe due to open thread safety reasons, because in some countries it is readily available for residential use. Some child may go in to their parents garage to try to bleach his discolored Playmobil toys after reading the procedure on this forum, & I would feel terrible if something happened to that child as a result ! I thought I would show just 2 tool box drawer contents in my arsenal!

[Indianna]

I agree with you to a certain point Indianna! But what spurred this topic was Playmobils cracking down on sites showing artistic design due to their liability issues originating in their own country! Playmobil states that they can be held accountable for others who don't use their toys in a proper manner, & they will pursue websites that show customizations that children may endanger themselves attempting to duplicate! It is strange for a country's laws to hold a manufacturer liable for what others do with their products after they are purchased  !

How will Geobra pursue these websites, especially ones outside of Germany?  Are there E.U. laws that would either support or prohibit this type of action throughout Europe?  It seems to me that the only thing Geobra can do to a person or website (outside of Germany, anyway) is to intimidate them.  Otherwise, customizing klickies (as long as they are not represented as "original") and displaying the results, however offensive, would seem to be protected by fair use and free speech laws in most "democratic" countries. 

The reason I support a separate board is to protect Playmofriends from reprimands if we post extreme procedures used in customizing processes! I myself can actually show Dremel tool procedures, or work being done with razor blades, hobby knives, & even being injured while doing the procedures, blood & all, but I refrain from doing so to protect children from being exposed to them. I have a regular hair dryer, & a heat gun that produces 1500 watts that can severely burn someone, or totally melt a plastic Klicky into a blob  ! I used to work on heavy duty trucks, so my retired high dollar tool collection is available for any project  !  If we had a separate restricted board for adults only, no offense to children, we could reveal our secrets using all of our tool arsenals, & tricks of the trade so to speak! The bleaching process that Andi revealed using commercial grade hydrogen peroxide, that is severely caustic, is a process I'm still interested in, but I myself was required to remove the recipe due to open thread safety reasons, because in some countries it is readily available for residential use. Some child may go in to their parents garage to try to bleach his discolored Playmobil toys after reading the procedure on this forum, & I would feel terrible if something happened to that child as a result !

Bill, you are truly a good person to be concerned about the results of your actions and I believe that you are absolutely correct to decide for yourself that there are certain things that you will not post.  I also believe that you would be wise to let others decide for themselves what they feel comfortable posting.  As a moderator, you obviously have additional responsibility and I am grateful to you and all the other folks who take the time and make the effort to serve as mods.  Having said that, however, I still believe that Andi's post should not be censored.  I think that the scenario you describe of the child running to the garage with discolored klickies, while possible, is not relevant.  If a child harms him/herself with commercial grade hydrogen peroxide because he/she has unsupervised access to it in his/her home, it is certainly not our fault!

Children are exposed to many things in this world that may be harmful to them and it is the responsibility of their parents and other caregivers to protect them and to educate them about how to be careful.  If we kept our children away from everything that might possibly hurt them they would miss out on so much that the world has to offer.  Let's also remember that the minimum age for this forum is 13 years old (as Sylvia stated earlier in this thread) so we are not talking about toddlers or pre-schoolers here! 

[Sylvia]

You've all raised very good points.

How's this for a compromise.... I can make a special section of the How-To board which is only visible to registered members (i.e. We would all have to be logged in to view it like the PFZ section).

This would mean that the only children able to read it are either members of the forum (like seawarrior and Aine) or related to members of the forum.

As members of the forum, those under 18 can post and ask questions when they are unsure about certain methods of customizing. Naturally, we can all help to steer them away from using any tools or materials that might be dangerous by putting clear warnings in those topics.

By creating an off-shoot board which is hidden to guests, we could be certain that no "unsupervised" children are reading about cleaning Playmobil using potentially harmful chemicals or anything else of a similar nature.

It's important to note that while we do not usually permit children under 13 years to join PF, that doesn't prevent younger unregistered children from reading the boards.

[Bill Blackhurst]

Let's give it a try Sylvia! It may be a good idea to have a permenant subtitle on the developing board stating to use caution, & that Playmofriends is exempt from any liabilities concerning procedures contained in that board, & Playmofriends endorses any precautions possible to promote safe customizing standards for any reader to follow! Just my recommendation  !