Author Topic: American Children & Knights  (Read 5923 times)

Offline Martin Milner

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 06:02:14 »
One person (SirTurk) decided to get snarky with one other (Necrono), for stating his experience without clarifying he was speaking from his own experience. The same person recently left this forum after a week of snarky replies and unpleasant facetiousness. I guess he's not at peace with his inner self right now.  :(

I hadn't heard the Ivanhoe Theory before, I'll have to read up about that. I've never read the book, but it seems unlikely (to me, in my ignorance) at first glance that a single book could be responsible for a war starting 42 years after its publication. If Mark Twain was convinced though, there may well be some truth in it.

Interesting how the rise of the Superhero and science fiction in popular culture mirrors the demise of the Western. When did Superheroes really kick off as a popular, or even a cult, interest? I'm guessing the Fifties, a time when Americans, basking in the greatest concentrated wealth and comfort ever seen on the planet,  looked to an uncertain future with mixed emotions of hope and fear, and comic books were the staple reading matter for millions of young Americans.


Lots of good inforrmation and ideas, many thanks folks! It seems like there is a degree of schoolroom teaching about medieval knights which could spark an interest, but also many popular cultural influences through film, TV, videogames, other games (such as collectible card games) and books.

Offline Little Jo

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 06:10:29 »
My mother has films of my 5th birthday party, and I'm pretty sure a few of my contemporaries were dressed as Cowboys or Indians - I wonder what a 5 year old would choose for a costume party today?

Maybe as CSI, in the Navy or from New York, Miami, ...

Offline Gustavo

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2009, 16:03:31 »
Can any American parents tell me why American children should show any interest in the Knights theme?

In Europe we had these guys running around for several hundred years, and in the UK you can barely throw a rock without hitting a castle or a battlefield site, but the same isn't true of American soil.

Where does the interest come from? Is it taught in History class, is it via TV, film and video games, or is it just that knights are the very essence of coolness?




We Americans search for identity in the places and cultures where we (er ... our ancestors ;D ) came from.

For instance, in search of an African identity, there came up the "blackpower" culture movements, since the seventies.

European origin people (like me) search for European patterns for better understanding who we are, and think and know what we can be today. A man has to learn about his own people's history, so as to learn to be proud about who he is. In a deeper way.

There's a lot of guilt in extermination of native American peoples. Well yes, we (specially my ancestors, yours had nothing to do with it ... you're in Europe, after all .. Your wife, on the other hand, isn't European, if I recall it well. Or is it someone else's? Not sure) we (my ancestors) (in a way) actually killed the peoples who lived here before us, so that we could come to live here. It's the cruel history of humanity, not far different than what happens in the Middle East, since long long time ago. Peoples kill others to get their lands; kill the warriors, enslave the women, and throw the babies from the cliffs. That's what happened in America. From north to south. And it's our doing. My viewpoint, and it's ... somewhat a religious point of view. Many may disagree of what I say, but it's a point of view, so, I have the right to have it. And I won't fight about it, or think unfair if this commentary is erased. We aren't supposed to speak about politics or religion here.

I spoke about native Americans because these are the main ethnies in America: we're European (in speech), many among us came from Africa from the beginning of the colonization (1600, 1700s), and well, before us, there were people(s) here, who were defeated (and, yet, some of them survived, remain, and are supposed to be proud about being who they are).

So, how come that we Americans (either "English"/E'angeese (Les Anglaises > Yankees) or Spanish and Portuguese) come to understand knights, castles and dragons as a bit of our own culture? Some (most actually, or, at least half*) of us came from where these things are part of culture, so we brought them with us.

As well as cinema, and literature before it, took north American "Indians" and Western (in)to Europe.

And now we have internet, so that we can even talk about it! :hmm: Crazy, aye?


*Lets say, one third European, one third "Afro", one third divided into native Americans (very few remaining), and later imigrants, from the second half of the XIXth century, in Brasil, for example, there's a lot of Lebaneese (called "Turks", because they came to Brasil through Turkey and, therefore, with Turkish papers), Chinese (in Rio de Janeiro), Japanese (in Sampaulo there's huge Japanese population), and from the period of the War (the Great War ... before the second one), many Italian and German imigrants came, Italian mainly to Sampaulo, and German to south of Brasil, and to Uruguai and Argentina ...). My ancestors are Italian. I'm the fourth Brasilian generation of an Italian bookman, who was on his way to Argentina, but, because of seasickness, decided to stay in the first reasonable port he could believe to stablish himself :lol: ... So, he stayed at Bahia, northeast of Brasil, and it was my grandpa who came to Rio, later on.

And all this not to count on ethnical mixtures (European and Afrodescendants, in Brasil, is widely spread, which makes us a ... kind of a tolerant people, I think, among ourselves), and not to count other Europeans from the beginning of colonization, who disputed the possetion of the land: in northern borders of Brasil, there's a lot of Dutch and French(ies), there are two countries north of Brasil, Suriname, which is Dutch, if I'm not mistaken, and French Guiana ... And there's a lot of history of Dutch dispute for Recife, one of the main northern Brasilian towns, which was, by the way, founded, if I'm not mistaken, by the Dutch. Like the Big Apple ...)

This is America! Lots of people, in lands of ... most everyone. Now, it's Americans'. English on the north, Spanish ... around, and Portuguese in Brasil.



Besides that, Ron T. and mr. Bilbo Baggins became quite famous worldwide during the XXth century ;D

 8}


Gus
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 16:34:15 by Gustavo »
Gus
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Offline Indianna

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 17:05:20 »
I hadn't heard the Ivanhoe Theory before, I'll have to read up about that. I've never read the book, but it seems unlikely (to me, in my ignorance) at first glance that a single book could be responsible for a war starting 42 years after its publication. If Mark Twain was convinced though, there may well be some truth in it.

It does seem hard to believe, doesn't it?  One place that Twain laid out his thoughts on this subject was in a collection of essays called Life on the Mississippi which was published in 1883.  Here is a paragraph from Chapter 46 (the full text of the book is available online at the same location.)

Sir Walter had so large a hand in making Southern character, as it existed
before the war, that he is in great measure responsible for the war.
It seems a little harsh toward a dead man to say that we never should have had
any war but for Sir Walter; and yet something of a plausible argument might,
perhaps, be made in support of that wild proposition.  The Southerner of
the American Revolution owned slaves; so did the Southerner of the Civil War:
but the former resembles the latter as an Englishman resembles a Frenchman.
The change of character can be traced rather more easily to Sir Walter's
influence than to that of any other thing or person.


Also, re snarkiness, a second look proves your point:  most of the discussion on Playmoboard was good and informative - it was just those few comments you referenced that were a bit over the top.    :)
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Offline cachalote

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2009, 18:12:10 »
if it's sophisticated contributions you are after martin, i think we can beat playmoboard's "very good and enlightening answers".  :P
indianna introduced an interesting point -  the "over-arching".
it reminded me of archetypes and their essence as carl jung defines them.
maybe iconographically the medieval theme is the one that best let us use this archetypes.
if you join it with the "magic" theme you can cover all of them.
if you believe jung is right we all (including children) play or act according to pre-defined types, whatever culture or place we come from.in the medievel theme you can easily mix the five basic archetypes (self, shadow, anima, animus, persona) creating heros, anti-heros, magicians, etc..
you can see this use in a lot of places (even on richard's kinkdomality) and using medieval characters seems to work better than construction workers (another playmobil theme).
maybe we used them so many times in europe that, seeking fot new "scenarios" we chose cowboys and indians more recently, or even samurais (kurosawa's "ran" is notvery different form shakespeare's "king lear").
to shorten this replie, i guess we always look for "plain" characters and plots.
the medieval times do this wonderfully, and it is difficult to escape its "strength" no matter how distant (in time or space) you live from them.
  :)
    honni soit qui mal y pense

Offline Gustavo

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 18:25:08 »

That same good-versus-evil story (though which side is good, which evil?) runs through other genres as well.  "Cowboys and Indians" and "North versus South" (U.S. Civil war) are uniquely "American" themes yet they appear to be of great interest to folks from other places, too.  There are many interconnections between these genres.  For example, the stories of Cowboys and Knights have many similarities - there was even one old western TV show here in the states called "Have Gun, Will Travel."  The main character was a hired gun who only killed bad guys.  His name was Paladin (an ancient French knight) and his business card featured a picture of a chess knight.  His theme song, in part, went:  "'have gun, will travel' reads the card of the man, a knight without armor in a savage land."




There's a movie by Akira Kurosawa, The Seven Samurai, which was "translated" into Western genre, in Magnificent Seven, back in the '60s. I never watched the Japanese one, which is even b&w. (My dad did ... But the version we have in dvd is the Western one ;D )
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Offline Indianna

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2009, 20:40:32 »

 . . . if you believe jung is right we all (including children) play or act according to pre-defined types, whatever culture or place we come from.in the medievel theme you can easily mix the five basic archetypes (self, shadow, anima, animus, persona) creating heros, anti-heros, magicians, etc..

I am not very familiar with Jungian theory but what you have laid out make sense to me.  Perhaps it could be said that regardless of their particular culture, all humans tend to tell the same types of stories as a way to pass on their history and as a way to teach values to their children.  Your example of the similarities between Kurosawa's Ran and Shakespeare's King Lear and Gus's example of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai and the American film The Magnificent Seven illustrate that beautifully.  To tie this into the "Knight" topic, I think it is safe to say that there are many similarities between the Knight legend and the Samurai legend.   :)
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Offline Gustavo

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 20:46:46 »
I am not very familiar with Jungian theory but what you have laid out make sense to me.  Perhaps it could be said that regardless of their particular culture, all humans tend to tell the same types of stories as a way to pass on their history and as a way to teach values to their children.  Your example of the similarities between Kurosawa's Ran and Shakespeare's King Lear and Gus's example of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai and the American film The Magnificent Seven illustrate that beautifully.  To tie this into the "Knight" topic, I think it is safe to say that there are many similarities between the Knight legend and the Samurai legend.   :)

Magnificent Seven was actually a version of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai.

However, concerning samurai & knights, you've made a very interesting point, because there are some remarkable similarities, and it hasn't anything to do with versions. It has to do with development of culture. The vanishing knighthood and the end of samurai have a similar context of a historical moment that was changing.  So, we have the Don Quixote, fighting against windmills as a mark that his day had ended, and he was sticking himself to an old way of thinking.
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Offline Indianna

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2009, 00:35:25 »
The vanishing knighthood and the end of samurai have a similar context of a historical moment that was changing. 

Excellent point, Gus!  I had not thought of it that way before.

So, we have the Don Quixote, fighting against windmills as a mark that his day had ended, and he was sticking himself to an old way of thinking.

That is exactly what Mark Twain said about Don Quixote - that Cervantes had marked the end of an epoch.  Twain's criticism of Sir Walter Scott (and some other authors, too) is that he resurrected that epoch by writing Ivanhoe

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Offline Jahme88

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Re: American Children & Knights
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2009, 02:11:52 »
if it's sophisticated contributions you are after martin, i think we can beat playmoboard's "very good and enlightening answers".  :P

Hey, that hurts. :-[  I tried my best...must it be a competition? ::) :)

That is exactly the point I made over there.....it's all about the archetype.  Knights are a version of what Joseph Campbell called the hero with a thousand faces.  We recognize that hero in any culture at any age.  It will never be foreign to us no matter what land the story originates from because we are human, it is an ingrained pattern. The heroic journey rings true within each of our souls since it is from the collective human consciousness that the story springs.  We all long to conquer evil, to go along on the quest and bring back treasure that will enrich our world. The names and settings change but the basic premises are few and repeated throughout the world.  The idea of a Knight or a Samurai or a God or Goddess or even a Lonesome Cowboy is a localized in name only.  The attraction is far more Universal and far older than medieval knighthood. 

I loves me some Joseph Campbell.  I hope that was sophisticated enough.   :P 8}  ;)
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