Author Topic: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)  (Read 13112 times)

Offline Richard

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Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 21:03:55 »


Hello, Timmy ...



Hi Richard may I petition what your source hails from?

Specificly: what do you mean by "typical for a lady of a royal house"?



Perhaps my use of the word "royal" has caused some unnecessary confusion.

As I'm sure that you are well aware, feudalism can be just casually "lumped' into four classes. Kings, Lords and Ladies, Knights and Serfs.

The top three classes were part of the "royal house or manor" as they gave homage and fealty to the monarch. (The Clergy also somehow got in there.)

So, the "upper class" got to "hang out" around the castle (the royal house or manor) while the "lowly" serfs usually did their "hanging" outside the castle.

So, to sum it all up ... there probably weren't any serfettes running around with henins on their heads ...  :klickywink:

And, one last thing, Timmy ... What's all this formal baloney about "petitioning my sources" ... Where I pull most of my information from is a place that I know that you wouldn't want to visit ... :lol:

All the best,
Richard



Offline Timotheos

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Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2008, 23:53:41 »

And, one last thing, Timmy ... What's all this formal baloney about "petitioning my sources" ... Where I pull most of my information from is a place that I know that you wouldn't want to visit ... :lol:



Hi Richard

Heh, I was trying to "circumlocute"--my original wording was too direct...  looks like the "circum" took the long route into the countryside.

As I'm sure that you are well aware, feudalism can be just casually "lumped' into four classes. Kings, Lords and Ladies, Knights and Serfs.

I was researching medieval England and France pretty heavily in 2007.  I agree with your casual summary, but I'd be tempted to tighten it further to 1) land holder 2) military labor 3) manual labor ("lord, knight, serf").

I argue this because in the early years of English feudal society, the king didn't have absolute central control over England, but had to co-exist with a few extremely powerful earls in northern england. 

Due to this, the feudal society of that time wasn't a perfect pyramid with a king at the top.

I'm splitting hairs here, but am trying to shake-up Gus's idea of medieval Europe, which may be an image of clearly marked royalty, nobility, knight, and peasant.

Another example:
The Sire de Coucy was an independent lord living in northern France who paid homage to the French and English king at his choosing and was heavily courted by both kings for his immense wealth.

He married King Edward's daughter, but avoided government posts (he declined to be marshal of France, preferring his independence). 

Regarding peasants in henins:

England passed a series of sumptuary laws in the late 1300s to restrain wealthy peasants from dressing in the fashions of the nobility (those curly-toed shoes were part of the problem). 

We tend to be presented an image of English and French peasants as uniformly downtrodden, but in actuality, western Europe at the time of the Black Death had a prosperous middle class of urban merchants and rural land holders (land holders who had bought up their neighbors' lands and were local big-shots, but were not nobility or knights).

-Tim

Offline Gustavo

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Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2008, 02:06:58 »

I argue this because in the early years of English feudal society, the king didn't have absolute central control over England, but had to co-exist with a few extremely powerful earls in northern england. 

...

Regarding peasants in henins:

England passed a series of sumptuary laws in the late 1300s to restrain wealthy peasants from dressing in the fashions of the nobility (those curly-toed shoes were part of the problem). 

We tend to be presented an image of English and French peasants as uniformly downtrodden, but in actuality, western Europe at the time of the Black Death had a prosperous middle class of urban merchants and rural land holders (land holders who had bought up their neighbors' lands and were local big-shots, but were not nobility or knights).

-Tim



The girl (3336) may look like a princess ... (I think she does, and I think I'll always think, because she was a princess in my childhood ;D ) but, I have to say, this comes from iconography. However, many (and very many) of the iconography we inherited is from a romantic XIXth century literature, that is somewhat little accurate in its reproduction of some medieval "realities" (...), e.g., Arthurian legend is portrayed many times in a XIVth XVth century fashion, although the better place (in time & fashion) would be an Britain abandoned by Rome, in the VIth century -- as some literature of the XXth century have been proposing (...).

It makes me think the recent brief dialogue between master Rich Count Bogro, for a very similar phenomenon: in English (?), the count had been known as a scribe (...).

It is interesting (to me) to search about these things: in German, the name of the 3336 girl is Burgfräulein, that we might translate as court maiden (translation isn't an exact science (...)). The count (3375) is called Graf, which is literally count.

I wander where Bart de Smet picked up these titles for them ... ::) 'Cause, if I could give my two pennies :2c: for a change, I'd love to see my princess intitled as princess, as I think proper for her! :yup:

Of course, it isn't that accurate, so that I can make her princess no matter that her official name is countess. I imagine the 3336 girl on the top of a tower, awaiting for a knight ... It's a child thing in itself, and no matter how deep you two go into the historical details, it's a silly question of a 30 year-old boy who's been again fascinated with the 3336 princess, and dreaming about making stories pop out of books! (And they pop out of the internet wonderfully!: they have been popping out, the last three months! they're even beginning to arrive in the Carioca toy stores, now! 8} ...)

 :lol:

 :) Even so, it's great joy to see your comments on the matter :yup:

And, seriously, maybe then, if a single klicky item was to be in the market as princess, perhaps she would be more like the girl of 3665?

I miss the hat of 3336 ... And I've never put hands on the "new" version (already old, too ...), in 3679 (King's Court, at Knights, Collectobil ... I can't link it right now, it seems I've reached the limit, and Collectobil began to block me).


G.
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Gus
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Offline Timotheos

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Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2008, 02:42:31 »

I wander where Bart de Smet picked up these titles for them ... ::) 'Cause, if I could give my two pennies :2c: for a change, I'd love to see my princess intitled as princess, as I think proper for her! :yup:


I favor "burgfraulein" because this is an example of how old PM would push the boundaries of stereotypes.  Yes, people associate the figure with a princess because her medieval hat matches illustrations from picture books we had as children. 

Yet, had PM resorted to those comfortable, unchallenging stereotypes, this thread would not have happened!

A lot of us historical customizers pursue Playmobil (and the research we invest into it) to expand our awareness of historical details.

Ergo, "court maiden" is more interesting for the questions it asks, than is YAP (yet another princess).

And, naturally, nowadays Playmobil pumps out more princesses than one can count.  Every medieval woman they produce now is a princess.



 

Offline Gustavo

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Re: Old Medieval Houses (from Playmobil.de Archiv)
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2008, 00:19:12 »
I favor "burgfraulein" because this is an example of how old PM would push the boundaries of stereotypes.

I agree.

This is very interesting, especially because theoretically, it'd be more easy to make more accurate detail nowadays, with all the paintings and accessories ... Those klickys back there were two-colour klickys!!! (And they have more spirit than many that came after -- not all, but many ...)


Ergo, "court maiden" is more interesting for the questions it asks, than is YAP (yet another princess).

And, naturally, nowadays Playmobil pumps out more princesses than one can count.  Every medieval woman they produce now is a princess.

Disagree.

Since when exactly? ... It's true that I haven't seen many women in the medieval sets recently, but the last ones I remember weren't all of them princesses ...

(3891, 3632, 3627 ... Although neither of these can be refered as recent anymore :( ...)

Fact is that there's been too little women in medieval collections, and this is, I believe, due to lack of civilian medieval items.

G.
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