Author Topic: Romans lay siege to German town  (Read 18168 times)

Offline Martin Milner

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2008, 13:18:25 »
My impression is that the Tribunes were unlikely to go anywhere near the battlefield, so they probably stayed near the Legate. The broad-stripe guy was destined for a Political career, so no point in him risking his life, and the rest were like quartermasters, necessary to the organisation of the army, and too valuable and knowledgeable to be risked in combat. Of coruse if the HQ got overrun they'd grab their arms and defend themselves, but no Legion should allow it's HQ to be so exposed.

The Tribunes might possibly carry messages between Legions, or the Legion and Rome, or the Legion and their base camp.

Offline Justindo

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2008, 09:19:58 »
Tribunes, like the Legate, acted mostly as administrators when not in battle, although one Tribune Agusticlavius at a time would act as camp and watch commander.  (Each Tribune Agusticlavius would take a turns in this role.)  That said, I rather think it was more the Camp Prefect and/or the First Spear Centurion who would handle the day to day operations with the men while the current Tribune Agusticlavius camp commander would handle more of the administrative aspects.  Nevertheless, this did give the Tribunes Agusticlavii some valuable command experience.

During battles, I think the Tribunes' roles would somewhat depend upon the Legate and/or the Commander.  While the Tribunes might stay right with the Legate and/or commander, I tend to think the Tribunes Agusticlavii would be zone commanders, overseeing two cohorts each and/or possibly act as the Legate's and/or Commander's battlefield Lieutenants.  (The Tribune Laticlavius, due to his familial importance and military inexperience, would probably stay with the legate and/or commander regardless of what was going on.)  The Tribunes Agusticlavii would, of course, be mounted and be behind the front line, so they would be relatively safe and also have a much better vantage point and ability to command a large number of men compared to a centurion fighting in the front line.  Although the Tribunes Agusticlavii wouldn't be the grizzled military veterans with at least decade or two of battlefield experience that the Centurions were, they would have quite a bit of textbook knowledge and varying degrees of actual field command experience, so they would be relatively capable commanders.  I would liken the Tribunes Agusticlavii to the modern day Majors or Lieutenant Colonels while the Centurions would be very much like the modern day Captain and Sergeant, albeit all rolled into one.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 09:27:05 by Justindo »
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Offline Gustavo

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2008, 19:30:39 »

 I would liken the Tribunes Agusticlavii to the modern day Majors or Lieutenant Colonels while the Centurions would be very much like the modern day Captain and Sergeant, albeit all rolled into one.

Hello, Justindo!

I'm not a specialist in military, but etymology does tell me that, at least in the beginning, centuriones had to do with a range of a hundred (centum) men, and decuriones, with groups of ten (decem).

I'll search the words agusticlauius and laticlauius (atributes of the tribuni) ... Never expected, as I told Tim, that I'd turn back to my Latin studies (also) because of Playmofriends ... It's a (good) surprise to me :)

Gus
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Gus
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Offline Timotheos

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2008, 02:38:12 »
I'm not a specialist in military, but etymology does tell me that, at least in the beginning, centuriones had to do with a range of a hundred (centum) men, and decuriones, with groups of ten (decem).

And the Sherlock award goes to P. Olive Guge. 
I'll give you a real prize if you can explain how the 100 man century came to be an 80 man unit.

What I've read:
1) The original 100 men body included the velites ("uelites", eh Gus?).  After the Velites were shelved, what was left was an 80 man unit.
or
2) The missing twenty men account for administrative clerks who don't fight.

Explanation 1) seems the most intriguing.

I'll search the words agusticlauius and laticlauius (atributes of the tribuni) ... Never expected, as I told Tim, that I'd turn back to my Latin studies (also) because of Playmofriends ... It's a (good) surprise to me :)
Gus
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agsticlavius = narrow stripe
laticlavius = broad stripe

Hey Gus, did your Latin classes use all "u's" for their Latin transliteration?
My classes used "v's" in places that modern readers would expect (granted, my teacher, a Catholic, pronounced them like "v" to my absolute irritation).

Or we could go truly classical--feast your eyes on this:
ARMAVIRVMQVECANOTROIAEQUIPRIMUSABORIS

Pretty, huh?

Offline Timotheos

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2008, 02:45:41 »
Hi Justin

What about senior officers, like legates?  These were generally career soldiers, right?  Your reference about the tribunes suggests that only two of the tribunes were career climbers from Rome.

I guess what I'm saying is I know almost nothing about it.  Caesar's legates, like Antony and Labienus, seemed to be professional soldiers instead of politicians (and Antony flopped at politics when he tried to play Triumvir with Augustus).

-Tim 

Offline Gustavo

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2008, 03:53:13 »

Hey Gus, did your Latin classes use all "u's" for their Latin transliteration?
My classes used "v's" in places that modern readers would expect (granted, my teacher, a Catholic, pronounced them like "v" to my absolute irritation).

Or we could go truly classical--feast your eyes on this:
ARMAVIRVMQVECANOTROIAEQUIPRIMUSABORIS

Pretty, huh?

I can't say it's a bad thing to learn the proper places of the "v", Tim ...

Only, once we're talking about Romans' Latin here, I'm using "Roman" way (because true Roman is accorging to what you brought from the Aeneid ;) ...)

When writing my medieval stuff, you'll see me using the "v"s. But, when in first centuries' Rome, I use no "v", 'cause they didn't know what was that. Nor any "U"s ... So :

ARMAVIRVMQVECANOTROIAEQVIPRIMVSABORIS
ITALIAMFATOPROFVGVSLAVINIAEQVEVENIT
LITORAMVLTVMILLEETTERRISIACTATVSETALTO
VISVPERVMSAEVAEMEMOREMIVNONISOBIRAM ...

 :P Need more attention, aye, T. Amici Turx?
(Not at all easy, though ... I almost let go one "U" or another ... ;D )

But you do it very well with your Latin ... I've been ... at home! Can't wait for doing some storytellings at Rome :cloud9: ... However, I think that I'll only have Roman klicky smiles after December :-[ ...

I'll have to patientiae colere uirtutem ...

Guga
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Gus
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Offline Justindo

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2008, 00:33:13 »
Hi Justin

What about senior officers, like legates?  These were generally career soldiers, right?  Your reference about the tribunes suggests that only two of the tribunes were career climbers from Rome.

I guess what I'm saying is I know almost nothing about it.  Caesar's legates, like Antony and Labienus, seemed to be professional soldiers instead of politicians (and Antony flopped at politics when he tried to play Triumvir with Augustus).

-Tim 

Birth class status was the primary determiner of where one would be placed in Rome's military.  Non-citizens would go to the auxiliaries, although citizens could enlist in the auxiliaries as well.  Some citizens, in fact, did this, as the enlistment term was shorter, it was arguably less dangerous, and the location would be arguably more permanent.  Of course status, pay, bonuses, and land grants were less too.  The exception to this was the auxiliary cavalry which was arguably more prestigious and possibly paid the same or even more than the legions.  (Scholars don't know for certain yet on what exact scale all the different units were paid at, and the cavalry in a mixed infantry and cavalry cohort would probably be paid less than the cavalry in a pure cavalry cohort.)

Citizens would go to the legions, but if Rome really needed to raise a legion quickly and badly and the man was a good prospect, a non-citizen might immediately be granted citizenship so that he could go into the legions.  (Julius Caesar did this with the Spanish.)  Average citizen soldiers could move up through the lower non-commissioned ranks to become centurions, then the top centurion in a cohort, then a centurion in the first cohort, then the first centurion of the first cohort, then the legionary camp prefect.  (A soldier's chances of even making centurion, however, were quite slim.)  The legionary camp prefect, although technically ranking third militarily and eighth socially in the legion, would actually be the most experienced and respected man in the entire legion due to his lifetime of experience and humble soldier's roots, which the men of the legion could more readily identify with compared to the wealthy and elite tribunes and legate.

The two types of legionary tribunes generally had two different career paths due to their birth class status.  The Tribunes Agusticlavii, of which there were theoretically five in a legion, were basically the experienced career officers and could serve indefinitely.  They could be in their early twenties on up in age.  They were called this (narrow stripe tribunes) because they were entitled to wear narrow purple stripes on their white tunics and a gold ring to signify their Equestrian class status.  Equestrians, if they were fortunate, would usually begin their military careers as prefects of infantry auxiliary cohorts.  From there they might be promoted to being prefect of a mixed infantry and cavalry cohort.  They then might be promoted to become a legionary tribune.  From there they might be promoted to be prefect of a cavalry auxiliary cohort or prefect of a Praetorian cohort.  Of course all of this depended upon how good one was, what one's personal preference was, how ambitious one was, and, most importantly, how wealthy and well-connected one was.  Due to the last of these reasons, however, an Equestrian might not be able to start his career as a prefect of an infantry auxiliary cohort.  Instead, he might have to start as a centurion in a legion or an auxiliary cohort or, in the worst case, as a normal legionary.

The Tribunes Laticlavii (broad stripe tribunes) were in their late teens or early twenties and wore broad purple stripes on their white tunics and, at least traditionally, an iron ring to signify their Patrician class.  There were theoretically only one to a legion and he technically ranked second, after the legate, both militarily and socially, but due to his youth and inexperience would or should defer battlefield decisions to the Tribunes Agusticlavii and the legionary camp prefect.  He was basically with the legion for a year or two to learn the ropes, as this was the first stage in his military and political career.  (These were intertwined, for Rome was foremost a military society.)  From the legion, he would transfer to any number of civilian posts and after these civilian posts, he might return as a Legate.  Legates were usually at least 30 years old and theoretically served for three years, but some served for less if they were terribly incompetent, or much longer if they were needed or if they were effective and wanted to.  One must remember that battlefield spoils, usually in the form of slaves, could be quite profitable.  (Julius Caesar was a broke patrician who owed money to everyone, but his military activities made him a very rich man.)

Of course much of the above regarding the tribunes is "theoretically" speaking.  In reality, one could think of Tribunes, either broad or narrow striped, as today's vice presidents in a company.  Technically a company, like a Roman Legion, might only require a certain number of competent vice presidents, but if the president, board members, significant stock holders, etc. wish to help out their family, friends, supporters, etc., a company might have a multitude of superfluous vice presidents.  As the Empire progressed and the equestrian and patrician ranks swelled, room had to be made for these men, so a legion might very well have ten Tribunes Laticlavii and ten Tribunes Agusticlavii!  One must remember that, unlike most countries today, Rome was a military society and the military was, for the patricians and equestrians, the only suitable profession with which to begin a respectable career.  All civil positions required military experience.  Of course good soldiers don't necessarily make good politicians, and good politicians don't necessarily make good soldiers.
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Offline Martin Milner

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2008, 07:13:32 »
 (A soldier's chances of even making centurion, however, were quite slim.) 

About 1 in 80 ?    ;D

Very interesting Justindo, I need to read through this all again, but it agrees with and adds to everything I've read so far.

I just got an Osprey book about the Praetorian Guard (by Dr Boris Rankov), and haven't read much yet, but a couple of interesting points so far - Praetorians were paid about 3 times a normal Legionary wage, and until 2BC each cohort was a separate command with an equestrian tribune in charge. Augustus then combined them into one command with two Praetorian Prefects in charge. The number of cohorts varied from 9 to 16 under different emperors. Being usually based near Eome, and with a shorter term of service, it was a very desireable position. They didn't become plump pseudo-soldiers though, often being picked from the ranks of legions for their ability, so they were genuinely tough hombres. When patrolling ythe streets of Rome, they would usually wear togas so as not to alarm the citizens, or be too obvious.

He also says that both Legionaries and Auxiliaries often provided their own armour, so hamata, segmentata and squamata would be mixed in the same unit - it was a question of what the soldier could afford or acquire.

In light of this I may mix a few of my Auxiliary figures and Legionary figures up in the units, but keeping the oval shields for Auxiliaries and scutum for Legionaries (as long as I have enough to go round...).


Offline Timotheos

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2008, 13:13:33 »
About 1 in 80 ?    ;D

Hi Martin, the odds drop considerably when you consider that in times of peace, the centurion might hang around for 30 years (why retire from a cushy life with social influence and flowing kickbacks?).  Also judging from my reading, signifiers, optios, and centurions sometimes formed a sort of informal careerist clique within the army.  For example, a signifier might transfer to another unit to be its signifier, or even transfer to an auxiliary unit with a promotion to centurion.  So you possibly had the same group of people rotating around the under-officer ranks, promoting their friends, and sticking by each other.

So out of that body of eighty men in a centurion, not one of those guys might ever rise in rank at all (except to senior legionary with exemption from some duties).

Offline Justindo

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Re: Romans lay siege to German town
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2008, 07:43:50 »
Martin, I like the Osprey book on the Praetorian Guard quite a bit.  It's been a while since I've read up on the Guard, and so I'm currently a bit unclear regarding the various Praetorian prefects.  I know that one or two prefects, depending on the emperor, was/were in command of the total Guard, but I seem to recall that each cohort was also commanded by a prefect of the Equestrian class, much like in auxiliary cohorts.  Does your recent reading support this or would the first century centurion in each cohort command it?

You're right about the shields.  Regarding the armor, soldiers would be provided with armor by the Roman army, but the cost came out of their pay, as did their arms, clothing, and perhaps food.  The hamata and squamata seems to have been preferred by the cavalry and centurions and signifiers while the segmentata seems to have been preferred by imperial legionaries due to its lighter weight.  The segmentata was also cheaper to produce, although I seem to recall that the Roman army charged the soldier the same price regardless of what kind of armor he was issued.  What he was issued depended upon what was available rather than cost.  (Of course centurions could afford to buy much better quality armor.)  As you note, to be completely realistic, an imperial legion would have a mix of segmentata and hamata, although the former would probably be in larger quantities, especially in the time period you're trying to represent.  Whether or not auxiliaries were issued segmentata is still unknown.  Traditionally, it was believed they were not, just as they were not given the pilum and were, in general, issued inferior equipment for fear they might rebel like the Batavians.  A few segmentata fragments, however, have been found at auxiliary forts, so this has reopened the question.  Of course this doesn't necessarily prove they were issued this type of armor.  For myself, I like uniformity, so all my legionaries have segmentata while all my auxiliaries have hamata. :)
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