PlaymoFriends
General => Community Events => Topic started by: Tiermann on January 28, 2011, 16:39:54
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The King of Salish is considering hosting a Tournament in July. He is concerned however that there is no governing body to maintain records of past Jousts so that World Rankings can be kept and experience can be factored into future joust scoring.
There is also no body that can penalize or ban trouble makers.
I would be happy to host League records and a ranking table at Animobil.info Shields/Heraldry
Your thoughts on this?
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I love it and will assist you in any way I can!
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Great idea, Tim.
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Great idea indeed!! Thanks for deciding to maintain these records Tim and hosting a future jousting project!
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The order of Golden Dragon welcomes the new Tournament!
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A new tournament? Could I meet Sir Agnar again? :toot:
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I'd be happy to help as I helped Gis. Tell me if you need stickers of any kind.
Arnaud
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Great idea Tim!
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Yes Please!
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Very cool idea indeed.
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Excellent idea, Tim! Sir Adler would be honored to travel to Salish for the King's gracious invitational. :knight:
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And I, if my participation in the war threads has not disturbed you enough
to feel Rutileo should not take part in the next tournament. :-\
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Count me in!
You do realise that I have resisted buying knights for so long, keeping my medieval castle for civilians, but now!..... :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit:
I've now started looking out for different caparisons etc. - more expense! :-[
Elaine (http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/mgqueen.gif)
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count me in. the more the merrier 8} 8} 8} 8} 8}
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Just to clarify - this thread's about the forming of a league to keep stats. The actual invitation thread for a Salish tournament will come along in a couple of months. The Winterhaven one has proven there's enough interest to do another.
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Just to clarify - this thread's about the forming of a league to keep stats. The actual invitation thread for a Salish tournament will come along in a couple of months. The Winterhaven one has proven there's enough interest to do another.
*Cough...* Um oops. :-[ :P
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OK, so here are the standings after the Winterhaven tournament. Keep in mind that this reflects total wins and not the finals order from the tournament.
(http://animobil.info/PFJoust/League%20Standings%201-11.jpg)
Currently we are using the scoring table as used at Winterhaven.
Move Points Honor 2x6 Die Roll Total
Hit Opponent's Horse 0 -1 2
Miss 0 0 3,4 or 5
Hit Shield 1 0 6,7, or 8
Hit Body 2 0 9
Hit Head 2 -1 10
Unhorse Opponent 3 1 11,12
This does not take into account experience. Do we want to factor that in as part of scoring? Should we use ranking to give some knights a bye past the group rounds?
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Experience...well, I'm not sure. On what basis? Since we've all started Jousting in the Winterhaven Tournament, we logically all are the same level of experience, aren't we? Second, from my point of view, which is far down the list, if the Jousters who went the farther in the first Tournament get the more xp, and experience has an influence in the dice-rolls, then we, the bottom of the list aren't left much chance to win a tournament...
If I say my knight has subdued a dragon, how many xp do I get? :lol: :lol: :lol:
A.
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One of the advantages of giving the top ranks a bye is that they compete in fewer rounds, which reduces the possible wins for them and evens the field a bit more.
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Well if we go over 32 participants we might have Qualifier Tournaments for the main tournament. A certain number of people could be automatically qualified based on there current league standing (top 16 or so)
I am still thinking about experience and how to use it.
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Yeah tenth place!!! ;D
Experience points...
those sound cool. 8-)
I would like to hear any ideas for those. :)
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OK here goes with a first idea:
For every match you joust you gain 150 xp (experience points)
For every match you win you gain 70 xp
For an unhorsing you gain 25 xp
Everyone starts at level 1 and you need the following (total) amounts for each level:
Level 2: 1000 (First miss each Tournament is rerolled)
Level 3: 2250 (First Hit opponent each Tournament is rerolled)
Level 4: 3750 (+1 on each roll)
Level 5: 5500 (-1 on each opponents roll)
Level 6: 7500 (First miss in the first three matches in a tournament is rerolled)
Level 7: 10000 (First hit opponent in first three matches in each Tournament is rerolled)
Level 8: 13000 (+2 on each roll (replaces +1))
Level 9: 16500 (-2 on each opponents roll)
Level 10: 20500 (First miss in each macth is rerolled)
(Double 1 will always be a Horse hit and double 6 will always be an unhorsing no matter the modifiers)
I could only think of four different "advantages" to give, which would be easy to excecute. If people have more/better ideas shoot!
Opinions?
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It's an interesting way to go. I would remove XP for wins. Wins come into play in league standings and event titles-prizes.
Perhaps rather than experience for wins there could be an honor bonus. Champions are more highly esteemed and would have more perceived honor. Honor comes into play only as the third level ranking in league standings.
So much of this is random based on dice rolls rather than any actual skill. So I think experience should be awarded for participation.
We might also consider awarding experience points for participation other than jousting.
Perhaps every time a photo story (knight themed only?) is posted to the forum some experience points would be awarded to the member that they could bestow upon one of their knights in the league.
For the Winterhaven event we had a limit of one knight per member with an exception of 3 knights for the host. In this case one of those knights has retired leaving Gis with 2 he's continuing on with. Since story points could be awarded to any knight it would be possible for a new knight to arrive at an event with some experience already.
Do we want to set a limit for the total number of knights that a sponsor/member can have in the league at a time?
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Quick reply...will go more in depth later
Sir Merriadoc has only retired as a knight of Winterhaven. Not as a knight perse. after 30 years of service he feels There is nothing more to teach the people there.
However he might just be up for a trip to another Jousting event. I was already wondering why you greyed out his name? He is still very much active on the jousting scene.
I was however planning on sending only one to any future event. More opens up possibilities :-) specifically with the map in place it adds so much more fun to it all.
but like I said...more later!
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I was however planning on sending only one to any future event. More opens up possibilities :-) specifically with the map in place it adds so much more fun to it all.
but like I said...more later!
Thank you. ;D
As for me, I only planned on sending one knight to each tournament.
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Ah, sorry, a false assumption. I will fix it this evening.
I think most tournaments will limit to one knight per sponsor, with the host having 2 additional spots they can fill as they see fit. We could make this a league rule?
There are people who missed the chance to get into the last one, and there may be people who don't choose to continue on. It's possible tournament size will get bigger and require additional bracketing.
The big photo stories like Gis has just done and like I am planning for the summer require a large collection of jousting knights. People with smaller collections may want to host tournaments as well. I think this can be handled cooperatively with Gis, myself, or some other member who has the missing knights taking photos to be blended into a joust story.
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It's an interesting way to go. I would remove XP for wins. Wins come into play in league standings and event titles-prizes.
Perhaps rather than experience for wins there could be an honor bonus. Champions are more highly esteemed and would have more perceived honor. Honor comes into play only as the third level ranking in league standings.
So much of this is random based on dice rolls rather than any actual skill. So I think experience should be awarded for participation.
Fair points! No extra xp for wins or unhorsing, sounds good!
We might also consider awarding experience points for participation other than jousting.
Perhaps every time a photo story (knight themed only?) is posted to the forum some experience points would be awarded to the member that they could bestow upon one of their knights in the league.
I love story points. But they would only be awarded if it is about the knight or the background of the knight and only applicable to that specific knight. Of course if it's applicable to different knights in the league the owner can choose.
Maybe have categories: short story, story, chaptered story with different point values for each?
Do we want to set a limit for the total number of knights that a sponsor/member can have in the league at a time?
A member can have as many jousters in the league as he or she wants. It just means that he won't have one very good knight, but more mediocre ones.
Ah, sorry, a false assumption. I will fix it this evening.
One that was easily made :-) no worries, and thanks for fixing it :-)
I think most tournaments will limit to one knight per sponsor, with the host having 2 additional spots they can fill as they see fit. We could make this a league rule?
League Rule...so we hereby found the PJL Playmo Jousting League....sounds good to me :-)
Maybe you can have a PJL page on Animobil, with current league standings, results from tournaments and a page with the winners including picture from the various events...(somebody stop me *grin*)
There are people who missed the chance to get into the last one, and there may be people who don't choose to continue on. It's possible tournament size will get bigger and require additional bracketing.
I think what I did was the max we want to really. It's 63 matches, if you want to give them all run per run photo stories its a lot of work. I was thinking of having the MAIN event always be 32 competitors, top 15 of the league are automatically qualified + 1 wildcard for the event holder. All other knights need to duke it out in preliminary rounds which will only consist of ONE picture per match.
For instance if there are 40 people, the top 24 qualify directly the remaining 16 do a single elimination for the remaining 8 spots.
We could do a Category B tournament,again with just 1 picture per match, for the people that didnt make it into the Main Event. These part of the tournament could potentially be handled by somebody other then the organizer so he can focus on the main event.
I think we should raise the point values of Wins in the Main event to 2 and all Prelim and CatB event matches should be worth 1 point for a win. These matches should also be only for half the XP, if we decide to use that.
The big photo stories like Gis has just done and like I am planning for the summer require a large collection of jousting knights. People with smaller collections may want to host tournaments as well. I think this can be handled cooperatively with Gis, myself, or some other member who has the missing knights taking photos to be blended into a joust story.
Of course I am always willing to help.
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I am working on the 2011 release update to my main Animobil pages now, but when that's done I will create a section for the Jousting League in the Heraldry part.
possible structure:
Intro Page
Rules
Standings
Event Results
Members - maybe each person who wanted to could do a brief bio of their knight that I could put up with a picture or two. It could also hold awards images for winners of Jousts etc.
I don't think the league name can have Playmo as a word by itself in it - it's trademarked by Geobra and we want to stay on their good side.
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The results are incorrect! It sais here:
Aziz bin Tarek ends the tournament in third place, as he has gained 1 honour during the event, where as both competitors in the other Semi Final are at -1 honour.
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The results are incorrect! It sais here:
Aziz bin Tarek ends the tournament in third place, as he has gained 1 honour during the event, where as both competitors in the other Semi Final are at -1 honour.
Is this correct? Please Gis and Tim look into that.
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Perhaps not experience points, but doing more tournament should logically result in an advantage imho. Perhaps experience should be reflected in acces to better equipment? Not that better equipment should result in a decisive advantage. Perhaps a better shield, armour, etc.
Logistically, someone wanting to host a tournament, should have a copy of all the different knights participating, no? I myself have created a custom for this tournament. Should I mail it around the world in other to participate?
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After the group stage:
*1) Sir Bart: 3 wins, 0 honour, +7 PD
*2) Aziz: 1 win, 0 honour, -2 PD
2) Sir Cecil: 1 win, 0 honour, -2 PD
4) Sir Merriadoc: 1 win, 0 honour, -3 PD
Round of 16: 0 honour
Round of 8: +1 honour
Semi Finals: 0 honour
end result +1 honour!
So yes Ali Baba is correct!
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This is about why Sir Bart is ahead of Aziz in the league standings, yes?
Sir Bart won 3 matches in the the group round and 1 in the bracket giving him 4 wins
Aziz won 1 in the group round and 2 in the bracket giving him 3 wins. At this point the number of wins comes first in determining standings.
This is different from the Winterhaven Jousting results where how far you go in the bracket determines your place.
So Aziz is in third place in the Winterhaven Tournament, but because Bart won more matches over all he is ahead in the league standings right now. If Aziz had won one more match he would be ahead since he has more in points and honor.
Do we want to weight the bracket matches differently than the group ones?
As far as sending around figures, it would depend on if the figure can be created by parts on hand at the host. It's always possible to send the actual figure if you like, but may not be necessary.
I know for the July tournament I will need to get a couple of things from Europe since some of the most recent knights don't come out here until August or later. I will do more on that in a couple of months when I take entries and figure out what I will actually need to have.
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Sorry Tim, but it is not about the place in the rankings. It is simply about the results. Aziz has one honour, but in the list it sais he has none.
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Sorry, my mistake.
The standings are fixed. If anyone finds any other errors please let me know.
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Thanksssssss, the record is straight again.
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Do we have to stick to the heraldry and names used in the Winterhaven tournament?
In my Kingdom of Sweetwater Sir Sigismund is a very minor knight in the scheme of things, he just happens to be the one who went to the tournament to try to earn some cash. There are other knights, nobles and factions in Sweetwater, whose heraldry is remarkably similar (i.e. identical) to those used by other knights in the Winterhaven tournament.
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The range of existing Playmo heraldry is too limited to be locking parts away to a single player. I think as long as the knights are clearly different from each other that's enough. We might encourage players to have a Kingdom heraldry that is unique and not a repeat of any existing Playmobil heraldry. Those of us with some art skills would be happy to help out anyone who knows what they want but don't think they can make it happen by themselves. That would allow some continuity regardless of what knight gets sent to compete.
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Custom heraldry has the problem of making the photo shoot at the tournament. How would we go about this...make a large kit with all custom knights that we send around the world, photo shop them (or just the heraldry) in.
I think that within one coaty of arms there is still enough room for variance. As long as it is to distinguish who is who I wouldnt mind overly much.
With the map in place we'll hopefully have very rich background stories so more involvement :-) So it doesn't matter as much who how unique your coat of arms is!
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Your display board was mostly photoshopped to be round symbols. It would be easy enough to do a display board with whatever people came up with. It wouldn't be too difficult to do banners for each, like the small banner in 4871 Lion Knights Troop, or even the large castle banner. The small one could be carried by a figure next to each knight at the start to show who the knight is riding for. It would just be sending the file around and then printing the banners out on heavy paper.
What I am not saying is that each knight should be custom painted or be carrying custom designed shields etc. The whole point of having Kingdom heraldry is that any knight could be chosen to ride for a Kingdom wearing his own heraldry. Minor differences in armour or caparison would be enough to tell individuals apart during the actual jousting.
None of this is mandatory, but if people want to do it I think it can be added in without any serious difficulty.
Really the only rules we ever need to have is the scoring system. Everything else can be worked out as we go. I think the basic die scoring as used at Winterhaven is acceptable to everyone. Do we need to do a poll about the question of adding in experience?
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Your suggestions is great Tim, that will work for sure (RE: the coat of arms)
I wonder how many people are really interested beyoong the tournament. Seeing the responses to this thread make me believe not a lot.
Lets make a poll and let's see what happens maybe make a disclaimer at the top of the poll to ask people to read the first post in the thread which explains what they are voting on.
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If anybody needs a custom coat of arms, ring my bell! I have lots of time to create them while I'm on dialysis…I could then send the files to Tim if it's okay with him, obviously.
Arnaud.
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I really like all this and look forward to the next tournament !!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think experience points is a must to make things more realistic and i dont see why not have such a system .
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I'm very much looking forward to another tournament! :)
Regarding the heraldry proposals, I'm flexible.
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Custom heraldry has the problem of making the photo shoot at the tournament. How would we go about this...make a large kit with all custom knights that we send around the world, photo shop them (or just the heraldry) in.
I think and thats after quite some thought we should make a ' basket of the knights' that will travelk around the world to whoever hosts a jousting tournament. Somehow i think this should be linked to the Pilot club . I also think it would be a good idea for each participant to sent a klikcy as a King who will be in the observers area. This way the King and the champion/ kight of each king can be used in the photostories.
I think this great idea and initiative by Gis can grow into something really spectacular with an international arena and bring our community closer .
Regardless of that happening or not i look forward to hopefully host a tournament in the future!!! Better get some more 3652 tents i only have 3 !! :lol: :lol:
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Your soldiers may get weary of being rained on all the time with so few tents. Watch out for mutiny...
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... Better get some more 3652 tents i only have 3 !! :lol: :lol:
I believe you more want the tent from 4273. ;)
It is cheaper, and the 3652 tents wouldn't have been used for sleeping in.
Oh, You mean for the tournament! ;D
Right, yeah those are good.
I only have 1! :o
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I believe you more want the tent from 4273. ;)
I have two of these but also have 4 roman tents that can be used in The Tournament of Krull when it takes place later in the year...
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Here's the League thread back again.
After having worked through a tournament I have some rule suggestions, and a suggestion to revisit die rolls - scoring.
Specific problem issues with knights - two things came up repeatedly
1. Clip on Arm Armor - it limits the hand movement and when adjusting the lance often causes the armor to pop off. I recommend it be outlawed for future tournaments.
2. Lance disparity - the old style and new style lances are different lengths and can make for problems in the photography.
Example old style lance 30 04 8080 - Lance (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showpart.pl?partnum=30-04-8080)
Example new style lance 30 07 6380 - Lance (http://playmodb.org/cgi-bin/showpart.pl?partnum=30-07-6380)
As the new style is longer and is easier for the klicky to hold in a range of adjusted lengths I recommend that future tournaments require all knights to use the new style lance during the actual jousting. What is used during parades would be up to the host.
Die rolls - I think the current system is cumbersome and could be streamlined.
My proposal for the die rolls is to roll a single 6 sided die and score as:
1 - miss - scored as zero
2 - glancing shield hit
3 - solid shield hit
4 - glancing body hit
5 - solid body hit
6 - unhorsing
A win would be declared at 7 points if there is no unhorsing.
If there is a tie of wins to determine who moves on to a final, then the knight with highest total points moves forward (with die rolls of 1 being zeroed out and not counted). If both wins and points are tied then a special jousting round between the two knights is run with the winner moving on.
Currently we have to convert from die roll totals to scored points. We also have to track honors in the event of ties. Both of these aspects would be eliminated and scoring streamlined.
Everyone's thoughts on these ideas?
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Yes this is a much simpler system and will helps others who are not that familiar with 1d20 etc... but what happens if both players bring 6, a tie, how honours will be calculated then? shouldn't we leave that out? We surely cant have knights unhorsing one another in one round... and how many points for each side of the die, i mean 1=1, 2=2?
Finally,by clip armour you mean the whole armgreave on the arm, then we have to turn to moulder armourde arms whose hands can easily turn.
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I agree... I think this simpler system with one dice is much better. I never understood, to be honest, the honor thing. 8}
Your suggestions for the lances and the clip arm armour are both great too IMO.
:)
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I like the simpler dice system rules
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Yes this is a much simpler system and will helps others who are not that familiar with 1d20 etc... but what happens if both players bring 6, a tie, how honours will be calculated then? shouldn't we leave that out? We surely cant have knights unhorsing one another in one round... and how many points for each side of the die, i mean 1=1, 2=2?
Finally,by clip armour you mean the whole armgreave on the arm, then we have to turn to moulder armourde arms whose hands can easily turn.
Last first - yes the full arm armgreave is the problem. Pieces that just cover the shoulder are fine. Gloves are generally fine since they can be rotated.
Points - I was thinking the points would be the same as the die roll with the exception of 1 since it would be odd to score a point for a complete miss.
1=0
2=2
3=3
4=4
5=5
6=6
We never had the problem with knights both being unhorsed. To score an unhorsing in the old system a knight had to have a two die roll total of 11 or 12, the odds of that happening are 1 in 12. With a single die roll the odds for unhorsing actually double to 1 in 6.
If we want to keep the odds the same we could go to a single roll of a 12 sided die or even stay with 2 die but find a way to score directly. It just seems odd to have more than 2 ways of hitting a shield to account for scoring a 4,5,6,7 .
My goal is to use the actual die roll as the gained points rather than having to do a conversion for every roll.
We can have any number of sides to the die that we want.
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On the one hand I agree with the, no arm greaves and just one type of lance, on the other hand I like the diversity it adds to the field. Yes it was slightly harder to set up but in the end it is worth it IMO.
On to the scoring.
My first thought is: if it isn't broken dont fix it.
The numbers are a lot of behind the scenes calculations only needed to be understood by the people running the event. The spectators should only know 0 points for a miss, 1 point for a shield hit, points for a body hit and 3 points for an unhorsing. It may even be that it gets more complicated adding these other terms, and different point values.
The honour system while a noble (get it get it get it) idea is indeed not adding a lot to the tournaments and can easily be scrapped IMO.Sorry going to get technical now.
The big problem for me is that we will be messing a lot with the percentages.
the current percentages are:
0 points = 27%
1 point = 44%
2 points = 19%
3 points = 8%
the new percentages would be:
0 points = 16,7%
2 points = 16,7%
3 points = 16,7%
4 points = 16,7%
5 points = 16,7%
6 points = 16,7%
This has a couple of effects:
The average number of runs needed for a match goes from 2,8 to 2,1 (excluding unhorsing in the second system).
The chance of a double unhorsing goes from 0,7% to 2,8%.
I personally liked the slightly longer matches, the increased chance of a double unhorsing seems irrelevant so I'm ok with that.
I had my excel sheet doing all the calculations so it wasn't any more/less cumbersome for me. I think most people don't care at all what kind of system we use and don't really want to understand all the number behind it. they just want an entertaining photo story.
Then again I am not married to this system and will happily abondon it for good reasons and a better replacement.
I am fully behind dropping the honour points.
Sorry for being difficult.
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I would to learn more about this.
Have you seen or tried:
http://www.teuton.org/~stranger/PLAYMOBIL/misc/tourney/index.html
I have played a couple of games and it seems okay.
-- Donmobil
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:hmm: this tournament was made 2 years ago. :hmm:
Am I missing something? ???
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Might still be interesting to see another jousting tournament though.