PlaymoFriends
General => Brainstorming For Playmobil => Topic started by: cachalote on April 08, 2015, 17:00:19
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:lens: playmobil’s revenue equals 1/6 of lego’s (550 vs. 3400 million euros).
:!: the only way to beat this odds is to come up with better ideas.
compared with the cost of advertising or the cost of a new factory, ideas come cheap.
:) but the potential in sales they represent has no limits.
:'( in the past playmobil was almost always behind lego presenting new ideas to “fill” the pirates theme.
playmobil started earlier (1978) than lego (1989) but lego soon turned out with a quantity (and quality) of “things” giving playmobil a hard time to compete.
:captain: the pirates theme (not just lego’s and playmobil’s) is made by a sum of several strong iconographic items.
information is scarce so most of the image a pirate has nowadays is largely a result of representations that started in the xix century.
some of them were used by both companies to “make” their pirate worlds - as a journey to www.klickypedia.com and www.brickset.com helps to see.
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lego seems to have done a better job so far:
- 1st pirate island, 6280, in 1989 (playmo 3799 in 1991);
- 1st raft, 6527, 1989 (playmo 3793, 1990);
- 1st “skull” island, 6279, 1995 (playmo 4443, 2008);
- 1st soldiers fort, 6276, 1989 (playmo 3112, 2001);
- 1st ruin as a “useful” building, 1492, 1992 (playmo 6146, 2014);
- 1st “spanish” soldiers, 6249, 1997 (playmo 4294, 2007);
- 1st dinghy/tender, 6267, 1991 (playmo 4444, 2008)
- 1st exotic island / islanders, 1788, 1995 (playmo 5134, 2011, with no islanders);
- 1st solitary / castaway island, 1481, 1991 (3861, 1996)
- 1st mix of pirates / soldiers sets 6270, 1989 (playmo 3859, 1996)
- 1st solo imperial boat (small) 6274, 1989 (big) 6271, 1992 (enormous) 10210, 2010 (playmo just did a schooner, 2730, 1991)
even in small details (the ones that end up “fulfilling” a set’s atmosphere) lego came almost always first:
- 1st skeletons, 6254, 1995 (playmo 3939, 2000)
- 1st prison doors with bars, 6270, 1089 (playmo 3859, 1996);
- 1st palm trees, 6270, 1989 (playmo 3799, 1991)
- 1st monkeys, 6325, 1989, sharks, 6527, 1989, parrots, 6270, 1989 (playmo 3750, 1990 / 3736, 1992, 3750, 1990);
- 1st small boats with cannons 6245, 1989 (playmo 5137, 2011)
- 1st dock cranes, 6273, 1991 (playmo 3112, 2001);
- 1st wooden palisade, 6249, 1997 (playmo 4443, 2008)
- 1st wooden deck, 6273, 1991 (playmo 312, 2001
strangely playmobil also comes late on subjects that a lot of collectors tend do dislike:
- redcoats on boats instead of sailors, 6274, 1989 (playmo 5140, 2011)
- printed skull and bones on sails, 6261, 1992 (playmo 3133, 2003)
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:) sometimes small things are “even”:
- playmobil never introduced crocodiles, lego missed the turtles;
rarely, playmobil wins in great ideas or details:
- 1st wreck as part of a dwelling, 6253, 2009 (lego 4136, 2007)
- 1st schooner, 3740, 1991 (lego 6268, 1993)
but playmobil wins when things get to small for lego:
- crabs, 3861, 1999;
- seagulls, 3112, 2001
:hmm: things don’t seem to great to our side, it’s true.
:) but something happened this year.
:o lego came up with no novelties in its sets.
lego missed stays and has lost its momentum.
(o.k, o.k. lego’s pirate chess board is great but it’s not a “classic” set.)
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it’s time for playmobil to take advantage.
:) this is what I suggest.
this is a pirate competition so there are really no rules.
playmobil should start by copying all of lego’s good ideas that are still “untouched”:
- the walking plank;
- the introduction of “exotic” islanders in the theme (they already exist solo);
- the enormous royal navy ship;
historical errors are not difficult to avoid.
all playmobil designers have to do is to buy all of osprey books and adult collectors will get happy:
- no more soldiers manning boats – a job for sailors;
- new (real) add-on sailor sets to replace crews od soldiers.
small is beautiful and lego can’t go that little:
- fill every pirate set with animals (seagulls, pelicans, parrots, dogs, cats, rats, goats)
- fill every pirate set with food and drinks (and bottles and dishes and spoons and knives)
small doesn´t mean less parts:
- big ships need to have more than a crew of 3 (7 would be a start);
- all ships need real string rigging and all the things that go with it.
finally, keep the “building” pressure on lego.
- start to do modular interlocking sets with removable parts;
- ancient ds sets like 7339/40/41 can show the way;
- modern safari 59… sets help do this;
- an “attachment” to the ds 7718 pirate island (that is missing one “side” could be the 1st try.
- system-x has already some “attach-ground” capabilities, use it.
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How to win? Sell your soul to the devil (AKA corporate America) it's easy
Its like comparing a "house wife" to a "prostitute" big difference
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This is a really interesting comparison between the two manufacturer's toy pirate worlds. I was struck by how many similarities there are (even if PM's versions lagged a few years behind...)- and surprised by the lack of 'plank to be walked' in the PM range. Your arguments for an extension of the PM Pirates range seem logical and well reasoned.
Surely there were PM dinghies earlier than 2008?
I am sure the interest in the pirate theme has been fuelled (at least for children!) by various books and films- Peter Pan, Hook, Pirates of the Carribbean, etc. Though these fictional pirates are scary enough, I think real pirates must have been (and still are) very unpleasant people!
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The two things Playmobil does better than Lego are aesthetics and historical details (when they choose to implement them). I think they need to cultivate the visually-appealing and educational aspects to distinguish themselves from other toy companies out there.
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I appreciate your detailed analysis cachalote. A lot of work went into that.
The two things Playmobil does better than Lego are aesthetics and historical details (when they choose to implement them). I think they need to cultivate the visually-appealing and educational aspects to distinguish themselves from other toy companies out there.
This is becoming ever more plain with passing years. Instead of trying to ape L*go, PM needs to own its strengths. L*go has bitten the licensing apple, bigtime. Great. Let them have Star Wars and Harry Potter. PM already has LUTHER, and REMBRANDT, and MARCO POLO, and proper redcoats, and ACW, and Victorians, and Eskimos, and Romans...go real, go historical, go accurate.
On the other hand the pretty horses seem to be doing well.
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Its like comparing a "house wife" to a "prostitute" big difference
i'm not sure lego will love the comparison... :-[
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:) as this is about the pirates theme, ripping-off lego's good ideas doesn't seem that awkward...
but you are right - playmobil has its conceptual strenghts and should use them.
but sometimes they seem to forget.
or to remember too much well...
:-[ before i saw howard pyle's illustrations - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Pyle - i must confess i thought that playmobil produced a "crowd" of black and white and grey and red pirates over the years (3794, 3936, 4156, 4219, 4293, 4443, 4581, 4776, 4964, 4965, 5020...) because their designers were somehow colorblind (o.k., and lacked imagination and were lazy and didn't did their research ...).
but that was unfair - they simply tried too much to stay faithful to the original pirates image.
the only problem was that they tried for too long and forgot to present their own vision.
:) and in the pirate world, anything goes.
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I was told that pirates would never burry treasure and never had a plank. It was children's books which reinforced these fairy tales. You seem to be very knowledgable on the pirate life so is there any truth to this theory?
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Surely there were PM dinghies earlier than 2008?
:) rowing dinghies have existed forever in the playmo-pirate-world.
:-[ i am sorry - i used the word dinghy because that's how playmobil calls its 4444 set - http://www.klickypedia.com/sets/4444-usa-pirate-dinghy/.
although i also wrote "tender", in both cases the word "sailing" shoulb be added.
:) i'm adding pictures of both lego and playmo sets.
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the plank
::) like you ras, i have a lot of doubts about the plank.
:hmm: others don't - http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/08/pirates-rarely-made-people-walk-the-plank/
:) i tend to think that peter pan introduced the plank.
:) of the eye-patch as a way to better adapt to different conditions of light and darkness i have no doubts - i tested on board and it simply doesn't work.
:captain: if the plank really existed, i think what others consider the less likely reason to use it is the right answer - forced many times to go to sea at early ages, seamen often had strange beliefs about the law.
to force someone to walk the plank and see him fall without any other intervention other than a ship's motion could be seen as a murder without anyone getting red-handed.
even in the royal navy sailors were naif enough to think that the captain's authority over them ceased to exist if the ship was grounded or wrecked.
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Wooden legs, hooks for hands, walking the plank... all may have been less common than we think. But neither PM nor Lego are setting out to create strictly historically accurate pirate toys, are they? It's more about meeting the expectations of children who will play with it, and these expectations are fuelled by fictional (stories, films) representations of pirates, as I said earlier.
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i totally agree with you grahamb.
i am not defending a very strict way in which things should look with zero tolerance for small liberties.
when i speak about "historical errors" i am just talking about avoiding gross mistakes.
>:( and i believe this is one: soldiers have no place on ships.
correcting it doesn't make ships less atractive (on the contrary) and it is easy to do.
:o lego also does this mistake.
"strangely" the only royal navy ship that was designed by playmobil before lego pirates appeared is historically correct.
could it be that their design department was so nervous with this sudden competition that they blindly copied whatever lego came up with.
:hmm: maybe. maybe not.
;D playmobil is designed to please children (who couldn't care less about this issues).
but this doesn't mean that childish mistakes should not be avoided.
:) they simply disappoint grown-ups (you know, people who pay for children's toys).
... o.k. and pay for toys for themselves. :-[
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"strangely" the only royal navy ship that was designed by playmobil before lego pirates appeared is historically correct.
Which set is this?
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the 3740 schooner - http://www.klickypedia.com/sets/3740-schooner/
it has 3 sailors, aa officer and a captain.
5 figures.
what a luxury.
released in 1991, it must have been designed in 1989 or 1988.
lego pirates started in 1989.
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That is indeed a beautiful set.
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;) now, imagine that (taking out the soldiers) stretched until this...
http://brickset.com/sets/10210-1/Imperial-Flagship
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That large soldier ship is the only good thing lego produced for pirates since the mid ninetees though.
Lego pretty much ruled the pirate theme from 89-96 or such, but then it was gone again while Playmobil stayed quite steady through the years, not as innovative perhaps, but they did keep a pirate theme.
Downfalls being appearantly the ghost pirates, the ship with plastic rolled up sails, and the new upcomeing theme which has a ship thats a huge downgrade from anything before (no cabin!) and an island that has little to it, and overally basicly no accesoires other than weapons and treasure in the entire theme. No food, no compass, no shovels, nothing.
A shame since the previous pirate theme was so strong from playmobil, at least in my opinion. The treasure island is beautifull, the clickies are often inspired, and the pirateship was the most beautifull one they ever produced.
The only thing the upcomeing pirate batch has going for it is the clickies, and nothing else. Its one big disappointment to me. But I am sure they will learn from this and may just as well release a strong pirate theme again in the future.
As for what they could learn from lego:
-Have a trade post and traders. Lego actually had this, something for pirates to actually plunder.
-Larger soldier presence. Playmobil pretty much throws a few soldiers in as an afterthought whereas lego seemed to pretty much keep both sides equal in amount of sets. Sadly they also neglected giving the soldiers a bigger ship untill the earlier mentioned ship of the line. They also always gave the soldiers a smaller ship.
-Pirate hide outs. Lego had many, big and small. I wish to see more of that since PLaymobil could do this better. Little look outs, hiding spots, island camps with rope bridges.. please give us that.
-Islanders. Got to agree about this yes, would be a good addition and might add to the treasure hunting theme. Could have this instead of soldiers.
-Large soldier fort. Lego did it, Playmobil only gave us small forts. While some nice ones, I would like to see them make something as big as a small castle.
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pm needs to give us army builder sets, a la the lego star wars battle packs. ten - fifteen euro per pack, four soldiers. adult collectors, it is proven, buy a lot of such sets. then again, pm doesnt care much about adult collectors ...
and it would also be nice if they didnt change the soldiers every three years or so ...
pirate-wise, im a bit board with the carribean variety to be honest. the mediterranean was teeming with corsairs in the 16th century. it would be nice to have something like that, but i cant see it happening. but that's why they should focus a bit on the adult collector. i cant see chidlren being that interested in that sort of thing ...
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pm needs to give us army builder sets, a la the lego star wars battle packs. ten - fifteen euro per pack, four soldiers.
They have a couple of soldier army builder packs available now, three soldiers per pack.
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PM set 4290 contains "a plank to walk" that can be put in place.
"Walking the plank" defininately was a means of execution aboard ships, like keelhauling was a way of severe punishment (most often also with death as result).
How often it was used, I can´t remember say. ;D
"strangely" the only royal navy ship that was designed by playmobil before lego pirates appeared is historically correct.
The 3740 schooner is a very beautiful ship, but it isn´t historically correct either; a "schooner" should have at least 2 masts.
The schooner-design was an evolution from 16th/17th-century Dutch masted sloops and yachts, used in the coastal areas.
(Dutch ships were famous for their beautiful sculpted details/ornamentation, and the origin of the word "schooner" might well lay in Dutch language; "een schoone schip" meaning "a beautiful ship" in English.)
First "schooner" in Royal Navy service was the HMS "Royal Transport", a yacht with a schooner-rig built in 1695. Picture of an accurate wooden model attached.
Most of Playmobil´s ships should have one more mast to be more representative... ::)
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"Walking the plank" defininately was a means of execution aboard ships, like keelhauling was a way of severe punishment (most often also with death as result).
And what of "kissing the gunner's daughter"?
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And what of "kissing the gunner's daughter"?
There were several ways for punishment by lashing or flogging, the one undergoing the punishment being tied to a cannon in a bended-over position being one of them.
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PM set 4290 contains "a plank to walk" that can be put in place.
:) you are right hadoque.
:-[ as i really don't like my 4290 set, i completely forgot about it.
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The 3740 schooner is a very beautiful ship, but it isn´t historically correct either; a "schooner" should have at least 2 masts.
:hmm: what should we call it.
a SLOOP doesn't have a square sail.
a CUTTER doesn´t have a square sail and has 2 latin headsails.
a KETCH has 2 masts.
a BARQUENTINE has 3 masts.
:) an extra mast would certainly easy the difficulty.
;) but i guess we can allow playmobil some very small liberties.
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-Large soldier fort. Lego did it, Playmobil only gave us small forts. While some nice ones, I would like to see them make something as big as a small castle.
here are some portuguese, french and british models i guess you will all like...
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:) a semaphore (or telegraph) could also be included somewhere...